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	<title>Comments on: Guns Don&#8217;t Kill People&#8230;DnD 4th Edition Players Without Rules For Guns Kill People!</title>
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	<link>http://dicemonkey.wordpress.com/2008/12/02/guns-dont-kill-peoplednd-4th-edition-players-without-rules-for-guns-kill-people/</link>
	<description>Dice Monkey: Someone who plays RPGs, or a collector of gaming dice</description>
	<lastBuildDate>Fri, 20 Nov 2009 13:18:26 +0000</lastBuildDate>
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		<title>By: Sunday Link-Around Quest &#8211; Dec 7 &#171; Jonathan Drain&#8217;s D20 Source: Dungeons &#38; Dragons Blog</title>
		<link>http://dicemonkey.wordpress.com/2008/12/02/guns-dont-kill-peoplednd-4th-edition-players-without-rules-for-guns-kill-people/#comment-956</link>
		<dc:creator>Sunday Link-Around Quest &#8211; Dec 7 &#171; Jonathan Drain&#8217;s D20 Source: Dungeons &#38; Dragons Blog</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Fri, 20 Nov 2009 13:18:26 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://dicemonkey.wordpress.com/?p=765#comment-956</guid>
		<description>[...] Dice Monkey: Guns Don’t Kill People…DnD 4th Edition Players Without Rules For Guns Kill People! [...]</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>[...] Dice Monkey: Guns Don’t Kill People…DnD 4th Edition Players Without Rules For Guns Kill People! [...]</p>
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		<title>By: Dave VanDam</title>
		<link>http://dicemonkey.wordpress.com/2008/12/02/guns-dont-kill-peoplednd-4th-edition-players-without-rules-for-guns-kill-people/#comment-931</link>
		<dc:creator>Dave VanDam</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Wed, 09 Sep 2009 11:44:43 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://dicemonkey.wordpress.com/?p=765#comment-931</guid>
		<description>Some additions since play testing.

-A pistol shot is can be used in melee combat. Shooting an adjacent enemy with the pistol does not provoke opportunity attacks when used in melee combat.

-The Musket can be equipped with a bayonet, allowing its user to wield the firearm, Two-handed, in melee as a spear (Prof +2, Dam 1d8+1). Firing the musket with a bayonet attached reduces proficiency to +2. Add or remove bayonet = minor action)
-A Musket equipped with a bayonet doesn’t break on a roll of 1 when used as a Two- handed spear
-Any small dagger/knife can be used as a bayonet
-Dex used for ranged attacks and Str used for melee attacks (Shooting a pistol as part of a melee attack still uses Dex)</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>Some additions since play testing.</p>
<p>-A pistol shot is can be used in melee combat. Shooting an adjacent enemy with the pistol does not provoke opportunity attacks when used in melee combat.</p>
<p>-The Musket can be equipped with a bayonet, allowing its user to wield the firearm, Two-handed, in melee as a spear (Prof +2, Dam 1d8+1). Firing the musket with a bayonet attached reduces proficiency to +2. Add or remove bayonet = minor action)<br />
-A Musket equipped with a bayonet doesn’t break on a roll of 1 when used as a Two- handed spear<br />
-Any small dagger/knife can be used as a bayonet<br />
-Dex used for ranged attacks and Str used for melee attacks (Shooting a pistol as part of a melee attack still uses Dex)</p>
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		<title>By: Dave VanDam</title>
		<link>http://dicemonkey.wordpress.com/2008/12/02/guns-dont-kill-peoplednd-4th-edition-players-without-rules-for-guns-kill-people/#comment-929</link>
		<dc:creator>Dave VanDam</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Sun, 06 Sep 2009 17:27:34 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://dicemonkey.wordpress.com/?p=765#comment-929</guid>
		<description>I like what you guys have done with the firearms and am give them a try in my game soon. I&#039;ve &quot;tweaked&quot; them a little and thought id share them.

Pistol: One-handed Superior Weapon; Proficency: +3; Damage: 1d10; Range: 15/30; Price: 100 gp; Weight: 3 lb.; Group: Firearms; Properties: Black Powder, 
Load standard, Off-Hand, High crit 
(Shooting an adjacent enemy with the pistol does not provoke opportunity attacks)

Musket: Two-handed Superior Weapon; Proficiency: +3; Damage: 2d6; Range: 20/40; Price: 300 gp; Weight: 10 lb.; Group: Firearms; Properties: Black Powder,
Load standard, High crit

Blunderbuss: Two-handed Superior Weapon; Proficiency: +3; Damage: 2d6; Range: Close blast 3; Price: 500 gp; Weight: 15 lb.; Group: Firearms; Properties: Black Powder, Load standard, High crit, Brutal 2 
(The blunderbuss is considered a basic attack, but may not be used in conjunction with powers. When you attack with the blunderbuss, if your attack roll is higher than you Fortitude defence, you are subject to combat advantage until the end of your next turn due to being thrown off balance)

Firearms Note:
-When firing a, a thick cloud of smoke fills the square where the weapon was fired, providing light obscuration until the end of the firers next turn.
-The noise from a firearm reveals your firing position if hidden.

-A roll of 1 is a misfire, the powder is wasted but the shot is not.

-The weapon itself is useable as a basic melee weapon, and classed as such for purposes of feats and powers with the weapon breaking on a roll of 1.

-For melee combat, Pistol = Club (Prof +2, Dam 1d6) Musket/Blunderbuss = Great club (Prof +2, Dam 2d4)

-All powers requiring a crossbow are also usable with Pistols and Muskets.

-Unlike other weapons, when buying a magical version of a firearm, you must add the original cost of the firearm to the cost of the magical one.</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>I like what you guys have done with the firearms and am give them a try in my game soon. I&#8217;ve &#8220;tweaked&#8221; them a little and thought id share them.</p>
<p>Pistol: One-handed Superior Weapon; Proficency: +3; Damage: 1d10; Range: 15/30; Price: 100 gp; Weight: 3 lb.; Group: Firearms; Properties: Black Powder,<br />
Load standard, Off-Hand, High crit<br />
(Shooting an adjacent enemy with the pistol does not provoke opportunity attacks)</p>
<p>Musket: Two-handed Superior Weapon; Proficiency: +3; Damage: 2d6; Range: 20/40; Price: 300 gp; Weight: 10 lb.; Group: Firearms; Properties: Black Powder,<br />
Load standard, High crit</p>
<p>Blunderbuss: Two-handed Superior Weapon; Proficiency: +3; Damage: 2d6; Range: Close blast 3; Price: 500 gp; Weight: 15 lb.; Group: Firearms; Properties: Black Powder, Load standard, High crit, Brutal 2<br />
(The blunderbuss is considered a basic attack, but may not be used in conjunction with powers. When you attack with the blunderbuss, if your attack roll is higher than you Fortitude defence, you are subject to combat advantage until the end of your next turn due to being thrown off balance)</p>
<p>Firearms Note:<br />
-When firing a, a thick cloud of smoke fills the square where the weapon was fired, providing light obscuration until the end of the firers next turn.<br />
-The noise from a firearm reveals your firing position if hidden.</p>
<p>-A roll of 1 is a misfire, the powder is wasted but the shot is not.</p>
<p>-The weapon itself is useable as a basic melee weapon, and classed as such for purposes of feats and powers with the weapon breaking on a roll of 1.</p>
<p>-For melee combat, Pistol = Club (Prof +2, Dam 1d6) Musket/Blunderbuss = Great club (Prof +2, Dam 2d4)</p>
<p>-All powers requiring a crossbow are also usable with Pistols and Muskets.</p>
<p>-Unlike other weapons, when buying a magical version of a firearm, you must add the original cost of the firearm to the cost of the magical one.</p>
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		<title>By: Donny_the_DM</title>
		<link>http://dicemonkey.wordpress.com/2008/12/02/guns-dont-kill-peoplednd-4th-edition-players-without-rules-for-guns-kill-people/#comment-519</link>
		<dc:creator>Donny_the_DM</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Tue, 03 Mar 2009 19:59:09 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://dicemonkey.wordpress.com/?p=765#comment-519</guid>
		<description>Personally, I like them.

My take would make loading a standard, with a feat available to make it a move.

Make actually firing the weapon a minor action or possibly even an interrupt.

Allow the weapon itself to be useable as a melee weapon, with it breaking on a 1.</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>Personally, I like them.</p>
<p>My take would make loading a standard, with a feat available to make it a move.</p>
<p>Make actually firing the weapon a minor action or possibly even an interrupt.</p>
<p>Allow the weapon itself to be useable as a melee weapon, with it breaking on a 1.</p>
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		<title>By: Black Powder Weapons in D&#38;D 4E &#171; Polyhedral</title>
		<link>http://dicemonkey.wordpress.com/2008/12/02/guns-dont-kill-peoplednd-4th-edition-players-without-rules-for-guns-kill-people/#comment-448</link>
		<dc:creator>Black Powder Weapons in D&#38;D 4E &#171; Polyhedral</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Thu, 29 Jan 2009 18:10:38 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://dicemonkey.wordpress.com/?p=765#comment-448</guid>
		<description>[...] like it&#8217;s a common addition to the core rules (Stargazer has a good take on them, as has Dicemonkey). Still, when I tried to find some good rules ahead of my New World D&amp;D game with a [...]</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>[...] like it&#8217;s a common addition to the core rules (Stargazer has a good take on them, as has Dicemonkey). Still, when I tried to find some good rules ahead of my New World D&amp;D game with a [...]</p>
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		<title>By: emptythreat15</title>
		<link>http://dicemonkey.wordpress.com/2008/12/02/guns-dont-kill-peoplednd-4th-edition-players-without-rules-for-guns-kill-people/#comment-310</link>
		<dc:creator>emptythreat15</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Fri, 05 Dec 2008 00:11:52 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://dicemonkey.wordpress.com/?p=765#comment-310</guid>
		<description>Yeah...and maybe reintroduce a dearly missed feat called &quot;Rapid Reload&quot;...that way gun-users would have the option to back it up to minor if they choose.</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>Yeah&#8230;and maybe reintroduce a dearly missed feat called &#8220;Rapid Reload&#8221;&#8230;that way gun-users would have the option to back it up to minor if they choose.</p>
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		<title>By: White Knights and Black Powder &#124; A Butterfly Dreaming</title>
		<link>http://dicemonkey.wordpress.com/2008/12/02/guns-dont-kill-peoplednd-4th-edition-players-without-rules-for-guns-kill-people/#comment-309</link>
		<dc:creator>White Knights and Black Powder &#124; A Butterfly Dreaming</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Thu, 04 Dec 2008 22:12:37 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://dicemonkey.wordpress.com/?p=765#comment-309</guid>
		<description>[...] been some talk about fourth-edition stats for early firearms over at Dice Monkey.  I&#8217;ve been thinking it over myself, and I&#8217;ve come up with a set of stats I think will [...]</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>[...] been some talk about fourth-edition stats for early firearms over at Dice Monkey.  I&#8217;ve been thinking it over myself, and I&#8217;ve come up with a set of stats I think will [...]</p>
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		<title>By: Scott</title>
		<link>http://dicemonkey.wordpress.com/2008/12/02/guns-dont-kill-peoplednd-4th-edition-players-without-rules-for-guns-kill-people/#comment-308</link>
		<dc:creator>Scott</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Thu, 04 Dec 2008 20:30:24 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://dicemonkey.wordpress.com/?p=765#comment-308</guid>
		<description>That could work... although Starvosk has a point about guns being a replacement.  The really early firearms were pretty fiddly and complicated, but a century or two down the road, they wouldn&#039;t even be considered superior weapons; they become ubiquitous.

I think &quot;load move&quot; would work if you really want to emphasize how slow they were.  The main thing, I think, is not to reduce them to less than one attack per round -- that&#039;s what makes them either completely useless or an overpowered &quot;alpha strike&quot; and then useless.</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>That could work&#8230; although Starvosk has a point about guns being a replacement.  The really early firearms were pretty fiddly and complicated, but a century or two down the road, they wouldn&#8217;t even be considered superior weapons; they become ubiquitous.</p>
<p>I think &#8220;load move&#8221; would work if you really want to emphasize how slow they were.  The main thing, I think, is not to reduce them to less than one attack per round &#8212; that&#8217;s what makes them either completely useless or an overpowered &#8220;alpha strike&#8221; and then useless.</p>
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		<title>By: emptythreat15</title>
		<link>http://dicemonkey.wordpress.com/2008/12/02/guns-dont-kill-peoplednd-4th-edition-players-without-rules-for-guns-kill-people/#comment-307</link>
		<dc:creator>emptythreat15</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Thu, 04 Dec 2008 17:30:59 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://dicemonkey.wordpress.com/?p=765#comment-307</guid>
		<description>I agree with you there Scott, and that&#039;s where the rules for firearms become such a hassle...balance. The firearm was a technilogical advancement from the bow, and therefore, should be more efficient, and possibly more powerful. However, they were slower, so if I were to reduce the load action to move, do you think the drawback would be enough to justify damage as well as the proficiency bonus? Because one could still fire once per round consistently (possibly more with Ranger powers), but would lose their mobility, which seems relatively realistic to me. As far as cost, you&#039;re right, 4th Edition has effectively balanced out costs, though I&#039;d like to make it realistic. Possibly reduce the pistol to 75 gp, so that a 1st level character could have one. The musket and blunderbuss I believe should be a bit out of range at 1st level, but after a little adventuring could be more than within a PCs price range. Let&#039;s say...150 gp for the musket, and 250 gp for the blunderbuss. And I&#039;ll eliminate the magic firearms rule. What does everyone think?</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>I agree with you there Scott, and that&#8217;s where the rules for firearms become such a hassle&#8230;balance. The firearm was a technilogical advancement from the bow, and therefore, should be more efficient, and possibly more powerful. However, they were slower, so if I were to reduce the load action to move, do you think the drawback would be enough to justify damage as well as the proficiency bonus? Because one could still fire once per round consistently (possibly more with Ranger powers), but would lose their mobility, which seems relatively realistic to me. As far as cost, you&#8217;re right, 4th Edition has effectively balanced out costs, though I&#8217;d like to make it realistic. Possibly reduce the pistol to 75 gp, so that a 1st level character could have one. The musket and blunderbuss I believe should be a bit out of range at 1st level, but after a little adventuring could be more than within a PCs price range. Let&#8217;s say&#8230;150 gp for the musket, and 250 gp for the blunderbuss. And I&#8217;ll eliminate the magic firearms rule. What does everyone think?</p>
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		<title>By: Starvosk</title>
		<link>http://dicemonkey.wordpress.com/2008/12/02/guns-dont-kill-peoplednd-4th-edition-players-without-rules-for-guns-kill-people/#comment-306</link>
		<dc:creator>Starvosk</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Thu, 04 Dec 2008 16:54:27 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://dicemonkey.wordpress.com/?p=765#comment-306</guid>
		<description>I just went ahead and made guns
Superior-
+2,1d8(Pistol) or 1d10(Musket),High Crit, Brutal 2, Load Minor
Counts as Crossbows for the purpose of Feats/Powers

Guns aren&#039;t supposed to balance with bows or crossbows. They&#039;re supposed to replace them. I have used this in my game based on Medieval/Fantastic China for a while. 

I don&#039;t feel that this makes ranged rangers/ranged rogues particularly unbalanced either. Your average damage goes up certainly, but not really to a degree where it&#039;s treading on the toes of other classes. You&#039;re talking 2-8 damage vs 1-8 damage, and maybe a +2-8 damage every twenty attacks. That&#039;s tiddlywinks. A lucky streak, some good tactics, or more than likely variations in effectiveness due to power selection more than average out the difference.</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>I just went ahead and made guns<br />
Superior-<br />
+2,1d8(Pistol) or 1d10(Musket),High Crit, Brutal 2, Load Minor<br />
Counts as Crossbows for the purpose of Feats/Powers</p>
<p>Guns aren&#8217;t supposed to balance with bows or crossbows. They&#8217;re supposed to replace them. I have used this in my game based on Medieval/Fantastic China for a while. </p>
<p>I don&#8217;t feel that this makes ranged rangers/ranged rogues particularly unbalanced either. Your average damage goes up certainly, but not really to a degree where it&#8217;s treading on the toes of other classes. You&#8217;re talking 2-8 damage vs 1-8 damage, and maybe a +2-8 damage every twenty attacks. That&#8217;s tiddlywinks. A lucky streak, some good tactics, or more than likely variations in effectiveness due to power selection more than average out the difference.</p>
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