Sorry guys, it’s been a while since my last post…I dearly missed all of you.
Here we go. So I’m going to be running the Ravenloft game very soon, and if you know anything about Ravenloft, each domain has a different culture level. A domain that a caveman would call home could (and oftentimes is) right beside a domain that Da Vinci would call home.
The current adventure takes place in the domain of Mordent, a Renaissance-esque domain. So I could just plead ignorance and pretend there were no guns during that time period and give in to the fact that there are no rules for firearms yet in 4th Edition. But there is something to be said for Dunegon Masterisitc integrity…and therefore I came up with, what I believe, to be solid rules for pistols, muskets, and blunderbi (blunderbusses, haha i love the English language).
Let me know what you guys think. I think these are relatively legitimate, but one should never fall in love with their first draft. Tune in next time for “Swing, hit, swing, hit…really?”
Pistol: One-handed Superior Weapon; Proficency: +3; Damage: 1d10; Range: 15/30; Price: 250 gp; Weight: 3 lb.; Group: Firearms; Properties: Load standard, high crit
Musket: Two-handed Superior Weapon; Proficiency: +3; Damage: 2d6; Range: 20/40; Price: 500 gp; Weight: 10 lb.; Group: Firearms; Properties: Load standard, high crit
Blunderbuss: Two-handed Superior Weapon; Proficiency: +3; Damage: 2d6; Range: Close blast 3; Price: 800 gp; Weight: 15 lb.; Group: Firearms; Properties: Load standard
Blunderbuss: The blunderbuss is considered a basic attack, but may not be used in conjunction with powers. When you attack with the blunderbuss, if your attack roll is higher than you Fortitude defense, you are subject to combat advantage until the end of your next turn due to being thrown off balance.
Firearms Note: Unlike other weapons, when buying a magical version of a firearm, you must add the original cost of the firearm to the cost of the magical one. For example, a Thunderburst musket +1 would cost 1340 gp, as opposed to the 840 gp a normal 4th level magic item would cost.
Pisol/Musket Shot: (10); Price: 3 gp; Weight: 2 lb.
Blunderbuss Shot: (10); Price: 10 gp; Weight: 5 lb.
Powderkeg*: (15 lbs. of powder); Price: 250 gp; Weight: 20 lb.
Powderhorn*: (2 lbs. of powder); Price: 35 gp; Weight: 2 lb.
*: A firearm requires one ounce of powder per shot (16 oz. = 1 lb.)
18 comments
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December 2, 2008 at 5:49 pm
greywulf
I’d suggest that the damage is a little high – I’d go with d8 for Pistol, d10 for Musket but keep 2d6 for Blunderbuss. I love how you’ve built the Blunderbuss with the Close Blast and risk of having Combat Advantage. If the player rolls a 1, I’d be tempted to say he’s knocked prone too
December 2, 2008 at 7:15 pm
Bill
Initial damage is a little high. Crit should be highest possible though, 3x or 4x. and loading should take more for Blunderbuss, it would take a full round like a heavy xbow (if that is still the case in 4.0)
December 3, 2008 at 1:43 am
Stargazer
Perhaps I can interest you in checking out my version of firearms for 4E. I created those rules some time ago and people seemed to like them.
http://www.stargazersworld.com/2008/10/02/dd-4th-edition-firearms/
The main difference between your and my approach is the damage and the fact that I decided that firearms take two minor actions. Please check my post out and let me know, what you think.
December 3, 2008 at 6:06 am
Scott
Hm. I think “load standard” makes them too poor a choice as weapons, even though their damage, range, and specials are otherwise overpowered. (The blunderbuss might be an exception; area-effect is pretty nice.)
Historically, early firearms were slow to load, but also inaccurate (especially at longer ranges). But since this is a game, balance and fun should be kept in mind too.
The closest existing weapons in the PHB to these are the crossbow and bows. Both crossbow and shortbow are 25g, +2 prof, 1d8 damage, 15/30 range. The crossbow is a simple weapon but load minor; the shortbow is a military weapon, but load free — one step more powerful, in exchange for needing a higher level of weapon skill. As a superior weapon, a pistol should be one step up from a shortbow. High crit alone would be sufficient. If the reload is slower — say, move; standard would just be crippling — then another bonus could be added, like the extra +1 prof or a one-die damage bump.
Personally, I’d leave the proficiency at +2. I might add Brutal 1 though — that’s the property from Adventurer’s Vault that says “reroll any damage dice that come up X or lower.”
The higher price is a negative, but not really a significant one; it’s not high enough that anyone past level 1 or maybe 2 will have to think twice about it. So don’t give extra bonuses for that. I’d be tempted to say make them cheaper but only available in certain places, actually; even platemail is cheap in 4e.
December 3, 2008 at 6:13 am
Scott
…So off the cuff, my pistol would look like:
Pistol: One-handed Superior Weapon; Proficency: +2; Damage: 1d8; Range: 15/30; Price: 50 gp; Weight: 4 lb.; Group: Firearms; Properties: Load minor, high crit, brutal 1
I think minor is enough load time. Even if we’re assuming a boot-pull instead of a crank, that’s still a lot of work in reality that gets translated to a minor action in game for the sake of fun; same principle applies to the black powder, I’d think.
December 3, 2008 at 1:47 pm
emptythreat15
The reason the proficiency bonus is +3 is that all Superior weapons have +3 bonuses, and I didn’t want to make it a military weapon for obvious reasons.
Even in Renaissance times, firearms were only held by nobles and those with a lot of money, so I kept the prices relatively high. This also keeps a 1st level character from running around with an awesome weapon. These prices are the exact ones from the listings in the 3.5 Dungeon Master’s Guide.
To me, high crit, brutal 1, and load minor are way too powerful. Keep in mind that pistols and muskets can be used in conjunction with powers, and rangers with Twin Strike can still fire twice a round because if specifically states in the power that ‘time to reload is accounted for in the power”
I had considered making it load move, and I still may do that, though I like the idea of only being able to fire once every other round.
December 3, 2008 at 5:45 pm
Scott
Yes, but platemail was also only held by nobles and those with a lot of money. Likewise warhorses. The mundane 4e equipment explicitly does not use realistic costs.
Who’s going to use a weapon they can only fire every other round? That effectively cuts its damage in half, making it worse than the crossbow, which is a simple weapon. You can’t just raise the damage to compensate, because then you have to deal with outlying cases like the ranger who shoots his pistol to open (that could be 6[W] plus quarry with a daily power) and then switches to a bow, reloading after the fight. Which is the only intelligent way of using a gun with load standard — giving up an attack is just that big a penalty.
December 4, 2008 at 5:01 am
Rusty links - Gnome Stew, the Game Mastering Blog
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December 4, 2008 at 12:54 pm
Starvosk
I just went ahead and made guns
Superior-
+2,1d8(Pistol) or 1d10(Musket),High Crit, Brutal 2, Load Minor
Counts as Crossbows for the purpose of Feats/Powers
Guns aren’t supposed to balance with bows or crossbows. They’re supposed to replace them. I have used this in my game based on Medieval/Fantastic China for a while.
I don’t feel that this makes ranged rangers/ranged rogues particularly unbalanced either. Your average damage goes up certainly, but not really to a degree where it’s treading on the toes of other classes. You’re talking 2-8 damage vs 1-8 damage, and maybe a +2-8 damage every twenty attacks. That’s tiddlywinks. A lucky streak, some good tactics, or more than likely variations in effectiveness due to power selection more than average out the difference.
December 4, 2008 at 1:30 pm
emptythreat15
I agree with you there Scott, and that’s where the rules for firearms become such a hassle…balance. The firearm was a technilogical advancement from the bow, and therefore, should be more efficient, and possibly more powerful. However, they were slower, so if I were to reduce the load action to move, do you think the drawback would be enough to justify damage as well as the proficiency bonus? Because one could still fire once per round consistently (possibly more with Ranger powers), but would lose their mobility, which seems relatively realistic to me. As far as cost, you’re right, 4th Edition has effectively balanced out costs, though I’d like to make it realistic. Possibly reduce the pistol to 75 gp, so that a 1st level character could have one. The musket and blunderbuss I believe should be a bit out of range at 1st level, but after a little adventuring could be more than within a PCs price range. Let’s say…150 gp for the musket, and 250 gp for the blunderbuss. And I’ll eliminate the magic firearms rule. What does everyone think?
December 4, 2008 at 4:30 pm
Scott
That could work… although Starvosk has a point about guns being a replacement. The really early firearms were pretty fiddly and complicated, but a century or two down the road, they wouldn’t even be considered superior weapons; they become ubiquitous.
I think “load move” would work if you really want to emphasize how slow they were. The main thing, I think, is not to reduce them to less than one attack per round — that’s what makes them either completely useless or an overpowered “alpha strike” and then useless.
December 4, 2008 at 6:12 pm
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December 4, 2008 at 8:11 pm
emptythreat15
Yeah…and maybe reintroduce a dearly missed feat called “Rapid Reload”…that way gun-users would have the option to back it up to minor if they choose.
January 29, 2009 at 1:10 pm
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March 3, 2009 at 2:59 pm
Donny_the_DM
Personally, I like them.
My take would make loading a standard, with a feat available to make it a move.
Make actually firing the weapon a minor action or possibly even an interrupt.
Allow the weapon itself to be useable as a melee weapon, with it breaking on a 1.
September 6, 2009 at 12:27 pm
Dave VanDam
I like what you guys have done with the firearms and am give them a try in my game soon. I’ve “tweaked” them a little and thought id share them.
Pistol: One-handed Superior Weapon; Proficency: +3; Damage: 1d10; Range: 15/30; Price: 100 gp; Weight: 3 lb.; Group: Firearms; Properties: Black Powder,
Load standard, Off-Hand, High crit
(Shooting an adjacent enemy with the pistol does not provoke opportunity attacks)
Musket: Two-handed Superior Weapon; Proficiency: +3; Damage: 2d6; Range: 20/40; Price: 300 gp; Weight: 10 lb.; Group: Firearms; Properties: Black Powder,
Load standard, High crit
Blunderbuss: Two-handed Superior Weapon; Proficiency: +3; Damage: 2d6; Range: Close blast 3; Price: 500 gp; Weight: 15 lb.; Group: Firearms; Properties: Black Powder, Load standard, High crit, Brutal 2
(The blunderbuss is considered a basic attack, but may not be used in conjunction with powers. When you attack with the blunderbuss, if your attack roll is higher than you Fortitude defence, you are subject to combat advantage until the end of your next turn due to being thrown off balance)
Firearms Note:
-When firing a, a thick cloud of smoke fills the square where the weapon was fired, providing light obscuration until the end of the firers next turn.
-The noise from a firearm reveals your firing position if hidden.
-A roll of 1 is a misfire, the powder is wasted but the shot is not.
-The weapon itself is useable as a basic melee weapon, and classed as such for purposes of feats and powers with the weapon breaking on a roll of 1.
-For melee combat, Pistol = Club (Prof +2, Dam 1d6) Musket/Blunderbuss = Great club (Prof +2, Dam 2d4)
-All powers requiring a crossbow are also usable with Pistols and Muskets.
-Unlike other weapons, when buying a magical version of a firearm, you must add the original cost of the firearm to the cost of the magical one.
September 9, 2009 at 6:44 am
Dave VanDam
Some additions since play testing.
-A pistol shot is can be used in melee combat. Shooting an adjacent enemy with the pistol does not provoke opportunity attacks when used in melee combat.
-The Musket can be equipped with a bayonet, allowing its user to wield the firearm, Two-handed, in melee as a spear (Prof +2, Dam 1d8+1). Firing the musket with a bayonet attached reduces proficiency to +2. Add or remove bayonet = minor action)
-A Musket equipped with a bayonet doesn’t break on a roll of 1 when used as a Two- handed spear
-Any small dagger/knife can be used as a bayonet
-Dex used for ranged attacks and Str used for melee attacks (Shooting a pistol as part of a melee attack still uses Dex)
November 20, 2009 at 8:18 am
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